Services & Resources / Wolfram Forums
-----
 /
MathGroup Archive
2004
*January
*February
*March
*April
*May
*June
*July
*August
*September
*October
*November
*December
*Archive Index
*Ask about this page
*Print this page
*Give us feedback
*Sign up for the Wolfram Insider

MathGroup Archive 2004

[Date Index] [Thread Index] [Author Index]

Search the Archive

Re: Re: Solve Feature?

  • To: mathgroup at smc.vnet.net
  • Subject: [mg52874] Re: [mg52846] Re: Solve Feature?
  • From: Andrzej Kozlowski <akoz at mimuw.edu.pl>
  • Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:27:09 -0500 (EST)
  • References: <200412100123.UAA18967@smc.vnet.net> <opsir6lsn2iz9bcq@monster.ma.dl.cox.net> <002401c4dfb5$809b6a00$1802a8c0@Pentium4> <opsiu9j4nmiz9bcq@monster.ma.dl.cox.net> <opsiu90xstiz9bcq@monster.ma.dl.cox.net> <41BE2889.8030108@wolfram.com> <200412141100.GAA24711@smc.vnet.net>
  • Sender: owner-wri-mathgroup at wolfram.com

  FindRoot will not give you a "closed formula", which certainly has its 
uses, at least in algebraic cases. However, the point seems to me a 
fair one, numerical algebra based on machine arithmetic seems 
inherently unreliable and I am also not sure it is worth the trouble.  
Exact methods are much too slow except for relatively "small problems". 
But significance arithmetic works well here and seems reasonably fast. 
This, in fact, looks like the best justification I know of for having 
it at all. In fact the following works perfectly:


{c1, c5} = {(-50 + x)^2 + (-50 + y)^2 ==
      156.25`16,
     (-50.00000000000002`16 + x)^2 +
       (-37.49999999999999`16 + y)^2 ==
      156.25`16};


NSolve[%, {x, y}]


{
   {x ->
     39.1746824526924698688078348607`14.855117414427017,
    y ->
     43.749999999999977679491924308049646499`29.6989700043\
3602},
   {x -> 60.8253175473075501311921649336`15.04619631453911\
1, y ->
     43.750000000000012320508075692150353501`29.6989700043\
3602}}


{c1, c5} /. %


{{True, True}, {True, True}}


What's more, going down to much lower precision still gives perfect 
answers:

In[14]:=
{c1, c5} = {(-50 + x)^2 + (-50 + y)^2 ==
      156.25`8,
     (-50.00000000000002`8 + x)^2 +
       (-37.49999999999999`8 + y)^2 ==
      156.25`8};

In[15]:=
NSolve[%, {x, y}]

Out[15]=
{{x -> 39.1746824526945169247`6.698970004336016,
    y -> 43.75`6.999999999999997},
   {x -> 60.8253175473054829832`6.698970004336016,
    y -> 43.75`6.999999999999997}}

In[13]:=
{c1, c5} /. %

Out[13]=
{{True, True}, {True, True}}


This is making me almost enthusiastic about significance arithmetic. 
Wouldn't it be a good idea perhaps to dispense with machine arithmetic 
for this type of problems entirely?

Andrzej Kozlowski


On 14 Dec 2004, at 20:00, DrBob wrote:

> *This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) 
> Pro*
> OK, but it's a very simple polynomial system; if Solve and NSolve give 
> wildly wrong answers without notifying us, it's difficult to justify 
> ever using them at all (with machine-precision coefficients).
>
> I think I'm forced to use FindRoot virtually every time, already; I 
> just hadn't thought about it.
>
> Bobby
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:40:57 -0600, Daniel Lichtblau 
> <danl at wolfram.com> wrote:
>
>> DrBob wrote:
>>> By the way, it gets even worse if I use NSolve:
>>>
>>> solution = NSolve[{c1, c5}]
>>> {c1, c5} /. solution
>>> Apply[Subtract, {c1, c5}, {1}] /. solution
>>>
>>> {{x -> -4.27759132*^8,
>>>    y -> 43.74999927054117},
>>>   {x -> 4.2775924*^8,
>>>    y -> 43.75000072945884}}
>>> {{False, False}, {False, False}}
>>> {{1.82977917785309*^17,
>>>    1.82977917785309*^17},
>>>   {1.8297792462945597*^17,
>>>    1.8297792462945597*^17}}
>>>
>>> These are simple polynomial equations, so this is really puzzling.
>>>
>>> Bobby
>>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:15:30 -0600, DrBob <drbob at bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> HELP!! Here are two very simple quadratic equations (circles):
>>>>
>>>> {c1, c5} = {(-50 + x)^2 + (-50 + y)^2 == 156.25,
>>>>   (-50.00000000000002 + x)^2 +
>>>>     (-37.49999999999999 + y)^2 == 156.25};
>>>>
>>>> If we rationalize before solving, we get accurate solutions:
>>>>
>>>> solution = Solve@Rationalize@{c1, c5}
>>>> solution // N
>>>> {c1, c5} /. solution
>>>> Subtract @@@ {c1, c5} /. solution
>>>>
>>>> {{x -> (25/4)*(8 - Sqrt[3]), y -> 175/4},
>>>>      {x -> (25/4)*(8 + Sqrt[3]), y -> 175/4}}
>>>> {{x -> 39.17468245269452, y -> 43.75},
>>>>    {x -> 60.82531754730548,  y -> 43.75}}
>>>> {{True, True}, {True, True}}
>>>> {{-4.263256414560601*^-14, 4.973799150320701*^-13},
>>>>    {-4.263256414560601*^-14, -4.263256414560601*^-13}}
>>>>
>>>> You can check this visually with ImplicitPlot:
>>>>
>>>> ImplicitPlot[{c1, c5}, {x, -40, 70}]
>>>>
>>>> But if we solve without Rationalize, we get wildly inaccurate 
>>>> results:
>>>>
>>>> solution = Solve@{c1, c5}
>>>> {c1, c5} /. solution
>>>> Subtract @@@ {c1, c5} /. solution
>>>>
>>>> {{x -> 16., y -> 43.74999999999993},
>>>>    {x -> 84., y -> 43.75000000000004}}
>>>> {{False, False}, {False, False}}
>>>> {{1038.812500000001, 1038.8125000000005},
>>>>   {1038.8124999999995, 1038.8124999999993}}
>>>>
>>>> I'm using version 5.1.
>>>>
>>>> Bobby
>>
>>
>> The behavior of Solve with these approximate inputs is subject to the
>> vagaries of how it creates an infinite precision problem. As this one 
>> is
>> poorly conditioned it is not too surprising that it does not give a 
>> good
>> result. I'll point out that with VerifySolutions->True Solve will use
>> significance arithmetic throughout, and this is sufficient (in this
>> case) to get a viable result.
>>
>> The NSolve result is more troublesome. I tracked it to some difficulty
>> in assessing either of two important facts.
>>
>> (1) The precision used in an eigen decomposition is not adequate for 
>> the
>> problem at hand.
>>
>> (2) The result gives a large residual for the inputs when normalized 
>> in
>> what I believe to be a reasonable way (obviously we can make the
>> residual as large or small as we please by suitably rescaling the 
>> input).
>>
>> It is not too hard to fix the code for either of these but there are
>> drawbacks.
>>
>> The second issue came about from a poor choice on my part of what to
>> check: I used a numerical Groebner basis instead of the original 
>> inputs.
>>   So this can (and will) be addressed. In those cases where it catches
>> trouble (as in this example) the fix is to redo certain computations 
>> at
>> higher precision. As the code for this is already present the only 
>> issue
>> is in the detection itself. The down side is that I am not certain it
>> will be adequate to assess poor solutions in general, though it works
>> reasonably well for this example.
>>
>> For the first issue I am right now at a loss. It seems that the 
>> numeric
>> EigenXXX code gives a very poor result for a particular 2x2 matrix 
>> that
>> appears in the course of the NSolve code. It is not too hard to figure
>> out for a given matrix that the numeric eigen decomposition might be
>> troublesome. Unfortunately that involves finding numeric singular
>> values, and I believe that tends to be typically more expensive than 
>> the
>> EigenXXX computation itself. So the problem becomes one of efficiency:
>> detection of the problem cases could make all NSolve calls slower just
>> to find the rare bad apples.
>>
>> I'll give this some more thought.
>>
>> Another possible issue is in how the numeric Groebner basis gets
>> computed. This is something I also need to look at more closely. It
>> appears that for one variable order the result is quite tame, but not
>> for the other (NSolve[polys, {y,x}] works fine). I'm not yet certain 
>> but
>> I think the nuemric instability at this step is essentially 
>> unavoidable.
>> I believe this to be the case because I can find "nearby" polynomial
>> systems for which a problematic Groebner basis will emerge (and in 
>> fact
>> that happens in this example). It is not actually incorrect, but 
>> causes
>> numeric problems at low precision for the eigen decomposition on a
>> matrix formed from that Groebner basis.
>>
>> Whatever the outcome of investigating that numeric Groebner basis 
>> part,
>> EigenXXX computation needs to sort out how to handle the resulting
>> matrix. So this part at least is a bug to be fixed.
>>
>>
>> Daniel Lichtblau
>> Wolfram Research
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> DrBob at bigfoot.com
> www.eclecticdreams.net
>


  • Prev by Date: Re: Remove the higher order terms in series expansion
  • Next by Date: Re: Re: Solve Feature?
  • Previous by thread: Re: Solve Feature?
  • Next by thread: Re: Re: Solve Feature?