Re: poly question

*To*: mathgroup at smc.vnet.net*Subject*: [mg58410] Re: [mg58393] poly question*From*: János <janos.lobb at yale.edu>*Date*: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 02:02:02 -0400 (EDT)*References*: <200506300837.EAA15879@smc.vnet.net> <4622BC92-5FEB-4EAA-A5EE-8BE8307B8B6A@gmail.com>*Sender*: owner-wri-mathgroup at wolfram.com

On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:08 AM, Andrzej Kozlowski wrote: > > > On 30 Jun 2005, at 17:37, János wrote: > > >> I have a polynom called ftlmat >> >> (Dialog) In[187]:= >> ftlmat >> (Dialog) Out[187]= >> 2*a^2*b^2*c + 2*a*b^2*c*d - >> 2*b^2*c^2*d + b^2*c^2*d^2 + >> 4*a^2*b*c*e - 2*a^2*c^2*e + >> 2*a*b*c^2*e + 4*a*b*c*d*e - >> 4*a*c^2*d*e - 2*b*c^2*d*e - >> 2*c^2*d^2*e + 2*b*c^2*d^2* >> e + 2*a^2*c*e^2 + >> 2*a*c^2*e^2 + 2*a*c*d*e^2 + >> c^2*d^2*e^2 + 2*a^2*b*c*f - >> 2*a*b^2*d*f + 4*a*b*c*d*f - >> 4*b^2*c*d*f - 2*b^2*d^2*f + >> 2*b*c*d^2*f + 2*b^2*c*d^2* >> f - 2*a^2*c*e*f + >> 4*a*b*c*e*f - 4*a*b*d*e*f - >> 4*a*c*d*e*f - 4*b*c*d*e*f - >> 4*b*d^2*e*f - 2*c*d^2*e*f + >> 4*b*c*d^2*e*f + 4*a*c*e^2* >> f - 2*a*d*e^2*f - >> 2*d^2*e^2*f + 2*c*d^2*e^2* >> f + 2*a^2*b*f^2 + >> 4*a*b*d*f^2 - 2*b^2*d*f^2 + >> 2*b*d^2*f^2 + b^2*d^2*f^2 + >> 2*a*b*e*f^2 - 2*b*d*e*f^2 + >> 2*b*d^2*e*f^2 + >> 2*a*e^2*f^2 + d^2*e^2*f^2 >> >> If I do a PolynomialReduce of it the following way, I get: >> >> In[170]:= >> PolynomialReduce[ftlmat, >> {a*b*c, a*b*f, a*c*e, >> a*e*f, b*c*d, b*d*f, >> c*d*e, d*e*f}, {a, b, c, >> d, e, f}] >> Out[170]= >> {{2*a*b + 2*b*d + 4*a*e + >> 2*c*e + 4*d*e + 2*a*f + >> 4*d*f + 4*e*f, >> -2*b*d - 4*d*e + 2*a*f + >> 4*d*f + 2*e*f, >> -2*a*c - 4*c*d + 2*a*e + >> 2*c*e + 2*d*e - 2*a*f - >> 4*d*f + 4*e*f, >> -2*d*e + 2*e*f, >> -2*b*c + b*c*d - 2*c*e + >> 2*c*d*e - 4*b*f + 2*d*f + >> 2*b*d*f - 4*e*f + >> 4*d*e*f, -2*b*d - 4*d*e - >> 2*b*f + 2*d*f + b*d*f - >> 2*e*f + 2*d*e*f, >> -2*c*d + c*d*e - 2*d*f + >> 2*d*e*f, -2*d*e + d*e*f}, >> 0} >> >> The result show that the first poly I got - related to a*b*c - has >> all 6 variables, the next has 5 and the rest goes like 5,3,5,4,4,3. >> If I total them it is 35. My question is what series of polynomials >> should I use in PolymonialReduce to get results which contain the >> least amount of variables each - that is the total of the number of >> variables in each resulting polynom should be minimal, and on the >> same time the number of selected polynoms should be also minimal and >> their construction is "simple" - not necessary the same length as in >> my case - and I should not get any reminder in the result of >> PolynominalReduce. >> >> If I look PolynomialReduce as giving a "vectorization" of the polynom >> regarding to the selected {poly1,poly2,...} base, then the components >> of the result are the "polynomial projections" to the individual base >> polynoms. I would like to select a base where the resulting >> components have the minimum number of variables per component and I >> want this base to be as simple as possible, that is they also should >> have minimum number of variables in them. I am sure algebra has some >> theory for it, but my brain is just not recalling it right now. >> >> >> Any good tip, >> >> János >> >> >> > > I am not sure I really understand your question. You seem to want > to reduce your polynomial with respect to a family of polynomials > with reminder 0. That means you are reducing the polynomial with > respect to an ideal that contains the polynomial. Obviously you > will get "the simplest" representation in your sense (or at least > in the sense in which I understand what you are saying) if you > simply take the ideal generated by the polynomial, and as its basis > the polynomial itself. > > > PolynomialReduce[ftlmat,ftlmat] > > {{1},0} > > Nothing could be simpler than this but somehow I don't think that > is quite what you wanted? > > Perhaps you may be better satisifed by reducing with respect to a > GroebnerBasis of the ideal generated by the monomials of your > polynomial ftlmat? That will certainly contain your polynomial so > you will get remainder 0. The number of polynomials in the > GroebnerBasis will not be normally be small but the "coefficients" > can be made "simple" according to various criteria. For example > here are a couple of examples: > > > First[PolynomialReduce[ftlmat,GroebnerBasis[List@@ftlmat,Variables > [ftlmat]]]] > > > {2 c+f-2,4 b-2,2 b+e-2,2 d-2,b+2,-4,-4,2 b > +2,-2,-2,-2,-4,d-2,2,-2,4,-4,2,2,-4, > 2,4,-4,4,4,4,2,-2,2,-2,2,-2,2,2,4,2} > > > > v = First[PolynomialReduce[ftlmat, gr = GroebnerBasis[List @@ > ftlmat, Reverse[Variables[ftlmat]], > MonomialOrder -> EliminationOrder]]] > > > {2, 4, 2, 2, -2, 2, -2, 2, -2, 2, 4, 4, 4, -4, 4, 2, -4, 2, 2, -4, > 4, -2, 2, d - 2, 2*d - 4, f - 2, -2, > 2*d - 2, 4*e + 2, -4, 2*f - 4, 2, -2, e - 2, 2*e - 2, f - 2} > > You could try different orderings of the variables and different > monomial orders to see what gives you the "simplest" representation. > > Andrzej Kozlowski > > Chiba, Japan I am looking for an Aristotelian golden middle between your first and second recommendation. Let me reformulate my poly question in a general sense. I refer to the Help on PolynomialReduce for the explanation of symbols. Let say I have a polynomial "poly" and applying PolynomialReduce with polynomials {poly1,poly2,...,polym} with variables {x1,x2,...,xn} I get a result in the form {{roly1,roly2,...rolym} ,0} without any remainder. How should I select {poly1,poly2,...,polym} to get {roly1,roly2,...rolym} such as that Variables[roly1]+Variables[roly2]+....+Variables[rolyk] be minimal, but every one of these "rolyi"s still should have minimum one variable? The individual rolys can be any length - obviously less than the length of poly. In my example I selected a subset of the 3-variable permutations of the variables for {poly1,poly2,...,polym} , where the guidance for my selection was that they should have had minimum common elements pairwise - like bcd and acf have just one common element. I do not want {poly1,poly2,...,polym} to be too long and probably all of them should be terms. Optimally {roly1,roly2,...rolym} should have elements that Variables[rolyi]+Variables[polyi]<=n. Thanks ahead, János

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