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MathGroup Archive 2005

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Re: Re: Getting a pure text widget?

  • To: mathgroup at smc.vnet.net
  • Subject: [mg61472] Re: [mg61446] Re: Getting a pure text widget?
  • From: Chris Chiasson <chris.chiasson at gmail.com>
  • Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:07:21 -0400 (EDT)
  • References: <NDBBJGNHKLMPLILOIPPOAEIIELAA.djmp@earthlink.net> <200510170629.CAA16332@smc.vnet.net> <dj27gl$bn6$1@smc.vnet.net> <200510190616.CAA16741@smc.vnet.net>
  • Sender: owner-wri-mathgroup at wolfram.com

Steven,
As far as I know (I'm not an expert by any means), general XML can't
be rendered (by a browser), even with a DTD or Schema specified. After
all, the DTD/Schema only specifies the allowable structure of a
document. One could define CSS styles for something like <BoxData> or
<Cell> in NotebookML, but the browser still wouldn't know how to
render these elements.

That is why there is a transformation file (XSLT file) that will (or
should, if WRI hasn't made one yet) create XHTML (+ MathML + SVG) from
the NotebookML, so that it can be viewed with a browser that
understands this (these three) language(s).

Corollary: I would be pretty amazed if a browser that didn't have
native support for SVG could read an SVG DTD and a CSS file and then
render SVG markup as graphics on the screen.

As you said, it would be nice to have cascading styles for notebooks,
XML or not.
On 10/19/05, Steven T. Hatton <hattons at globalsymmetry.com> wrote:
> Chris Chiasson wrote:
>
> > I've used Mathematica 5 on Linux, it worked ok for me... Also,
> > Mathematica notebooks can be written and stored in a notebook markup
> > language (NotebookML - it's XML) instead of the standard .nb files.
>
> It's a big step in the right direction.  I do which they would use the
> entity names rather than the unicode hex representation for the special
> characters.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/byalpha.xml
>
> For some reason a lot of people don't think of XML as some thing a user
> would ever want to read.  I'll admit that this is not a particularly
> intuitive representation of covariant differentiation:
>
> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
>  <mrow>
>   <mfrac>
>    <mrow>
>     <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>     <mtext> </mtext>
>     <msub>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>j</mi>
>     </msub>
>    </mrow>
>    <mrow>
>     <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>     <msup>
>      <mi>x</mi>
>      <mi>i</mi>
>     </msup>
>    </mrow>
>   </mfrac>
>   <mo>=</mo>
>   <mrow>
>    <msub>
>     <msubsup>
>      <mi>&#915;</mi>
>      <mi>j</mi>
>      <mi>k</mi>
>     </msubsup>
>     <mi>i</mi>
>    </msub>
>    <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>    <msub>
>     <mover>
>      <mi>e</mi>
>      <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>     </mover>
>     <mi>k</mi>
>    </msub>
>   </mrow>
>  </mrow>
> </math>
> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
>  <mtext>
> </mtext>
> </math>
> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
>  <mrow>
>   <mrow>
>    <mrow>
>     <mfrac>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <mtext> </mtext>
>       <msub>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>j</mi>
>       </msub>
>      </mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <msup>
>        <mi>x</mi>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>     </mfrac>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msup>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>j</mi>
>     </msup>
>    </mrow>
>    <mo>-</mo>
>    <mrow>
>     <mfrac>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <mtext> </mtext>
>       <msup>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>l</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <msup>
>        <mi>x</mi>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>     </mfrac>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msub>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>l</mi>
>     </msub>
>    </mrow>
>   </mrow>
>   <mo>=</mo>
>   <mrow>
>    <mrow>
>     <msup>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>j</mi>
>     </msup>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msub>
>      <msubsup>
>       <mi>&#915;</mi>
>       <mi>j</mi>
>       <mi>k</mi>
>      </msubsup>
>      <mi>i</mi>
>     </msub>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msub>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>k</mi>
>     </msub>
>    </mrow>
>    <mo>-</mo>
>    <mrow>
>     <mfrac>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <mtext> </mtext>
>       <msup>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>k</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <msup>
>        <mi>x</mi>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>     </mfrac>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msub>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>k</mi>
>     </msub>
>    </mrow>
>   </mrow>
>  </mrow>
> </math>
> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
>  <mtext>
> </mtext>
> </math>
> <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'>
>  <mrow>
>   <mrow>
>    <mrow>
>     <mfrac>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <mtext> </mtext>
>       <msub>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>j</mi>
>       </msub>
>      </mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <msup>
>        <mi>x</mi>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>     </mfrac>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msup>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>j</mi>
>     </msup>
>    </mrow>
>    <mo>-</mo>
>    <mrow>
>     <mfrac>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <mtext> </mtext>
>       <msup>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>l</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>       <msup>
>        <mi>x</mi>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msup>
>      </mrow>
>     </mfrac>
>     <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>     <msub>
>      <mover>
>       <mi>e</mi>
>       <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>      </mover>
>      <mi>l</mi>
>     </msub>
>    </mrow>
>   </mrow>
>   <mo>=</mo>
>   <mrow>
>    <mrow>
>     <mo>(</mo>
>     <mrow>
>      <mrow>
>       <msup>
>        <mover>
>         <mi>e</mi>
>         <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>        </mover>
>        <mi>j</mi>
>       </msup>
>       <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>       <msub>
>        <msubsup>
>         <mi>&#915;</mi>
>         <mi>j</mi>
>         <mi>k</mi>
>        </msubsup>
>        <mi>i</mi>
>       </msub>
>      </mrow>
>      <mo>-</mo>
>      <mfrac>
>       <mrow>
>        <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>        <mtext> </mtext>
>        <msup>
>         <mover>
>          <mi>e</mi>
>          <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>         </mover>
>         <mi>k</mi>
>        </msup>
>       </mrow>
>       <mrow>
>        <mo>&#8706;</mo>
>        <msup>
>         <mi>x</mi>
>         <mi>i</mi>
>        </msup>
>       </mrow>
>      </mfrac>
>     </mrow>
>     <mo>)</mo>
>    </mrow>
>    <mo>&#8290;</mo>
>    <msub>
>     <mover>
>      <mi>e</mi>
>      <mo>&#8640;</mo>
>     </mover>
>     <mi>k</mi>
>    </msub>
>   </mrow>
>  </mrow>
> </math>
>
> But, if I had the character entities in named form, at least I could read
> it.
>
> > About decoupling input and output: You can write Mathematica code such
> > that it will not output cells to the current notebook, but will
> > instead write to a different one that you specify. In this way, you
> > could separate input from output.
>
> I'm talking about the core design of the Mathematica FrontEnd. I want a tool
> that does these things for me without having to spend weeks persuading it
> to do these things.
>
> > Personally, I want better output options for XHTML+MathML+SVG...
>
> I want CSS for NotebookML.  There's really no reason XML cannot be used
> natively on the web, other than some limitations of the current browsers,
> and the lack of stylesheets to support it.  I find it amazing that people
> will invest thousands of hours in XSLT to convert (mangle) XML into xhtml,
> when the same amount of effort could produce CSS to render the XML
> natively.
>
> One reason the browsers are limited is that nobody is pushing the technology
> in that direction.  AAMOF, it seems reasonable that WRI could replace their
> current stylesheets with CSS.  They seem to have all the necessary core
> components.  Someone over there understands XML very well.  That is unless
> they passed into darkness (moved to Redmond) or something.
> --
> "Philosophy is written in this grand book, The Universe. ... But the book
> cannot be understood unless one first learns to comprehend the language...
> in which it is written. It is written in the language of mathematics, ...;
> without which wanders about in a dark labyrinth."   The Lion of Gaul
>
>


--
Chris Chiasson
http://chrischiasson.com/contact/chris_chiasson


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