Re: Derivative of Dot[]

*To*: mathgroup at smc.vnet.net*Subject*: [mg91106] Re: [mg91055] Derivative of Dot[]*From*: Andrzej Kozlowski <akoz at mimuw.edu.pl>*Date*: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 05:06:18 -0400 (EDT)*References*: <200808050759.DAA09628@smc.vnet.net> <44ED75D6-E949-487E-B1B4-911269BFBFE7@mimuw.edu.pl> <7e09277c0808051107s6d27fddcuccdf7a22b4d0eff1@mail.gmail.com>

I think the rule for D[X[t] . Y[t], t] is necessary, rather than "useful". Compare these two In[1]:= D[Dot[X[t] , Y[t]], t] Out[1]= X[t] . Derivative[1][Y][t] + Derivative[1][X][t] . Y[t] In[2]:= D[dot[X[t], Y[t]], t] Out[2]= Derivative[1][Y][t]*Derivative[0, 1][dot][X[t], Y[t]] + Derivative[1][X][t]*Derivative[1, 0][dot][ X[t], Y[t]] If there was no built-in rule for D and Dot, then exactly the same thing that happens for dot would happen for Dot, which would be somewhat less convenient (you would need to define Derivative[1, 0] [Dot] and Derivative[0, 1][Dot] yourself). Other than that, I do not know of any obvious application. Note however, that Derivative is always first converted to D[ ], so any rules that are applied to Derivative and Dot are actually derived from rules for D and Dot. I don't see any direct use for them and actually I think they are basically an slightly unfortunate side effect. Andrzej Kozlowski On 5 Aug 2008, at 20:07, Eitan Grinspun wrote: > I agree with what you write, and I am aware of this. But: can you show > me one actually effective use of Derivative applied to Dot (anything > of your choice). In particular, I mean one where the arguments are not > explicitly labeled, i.e., using Derivative or prime, but not using D. > > I cannot find one useful example, the way it is set up. > > Sincerely, > > Eitan > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Andrzej Kozlowski > <akoz at mimuw.edu.pl> wrote: >> >> On 5 Aug 2008, at 09:59, Eitan Grinspun wrote: >> >>> I would like to compute the gradient F' of a scalar-valued >>> function F >>> of a vector-valued argument, without knowing a-priori the dimensions >>> of the vector. >>> >>> I am having some trouble with a very simple case. >>> >>> Consider the following function: >>> >>> F[x_] := Dot[x,x] >>> >>> Evaluating this function works as expected: F[{1,2}] evaluates to 5. >>> >>> I differentiate this function w.r.t. its sole argument, F' evaluates >>> to 1.#1+#1.1& >>> >>> This is reasonable, and as expected. I would think that, since the >>> argument of Dot must be a list, the derivative of Dot would have >>> been >>> designed to return something that is useful. While I presume that >>> this >>> is the case, I have been unable to move ahead. >>> >>> I evaluate the derivative at {1,2}: F'[{1, 2}] returns 1. >>> {1,2}+{1,2}.1 >>> >>> The Dot is not defined for scalar arguments, and therefore Simplify >>> does not reduce this further. I could of course program a rule so >>> that >>> Dot[1,x_]->x, but my intent here is to understand why the derivative >>> of Dot was designed the way it was---presumably there is a reason, >>> and >>> there is a proper way to make use of the derivative. >>> >>> Once I have the derivative, I should be able to contract it with a >>> (tangent) vector to obtain the (linearized) change the (scalar) >>> function value: >>> >>> F'[{1, 2}].{3,4} >>> >>> Alas, this returns (1.{1,2}+{1,2}.1).{3,4} which does not simplify >>> (even after Distribute) because Dot does not operate on scalar >>> arguments. >>> >>> I'd like some help in understanding how to use Derivative with Dot >>> (it >>> was evidently designed to be used, or there would not be a rule >>> built >>> in). >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Eitan >>> >> >> >> The problem is that you are deriving wrong conclusion (that the >> formula you >> get must have some meaning) from a correct premise (that >> Mathematica has >> some meaningful buil-in rules for differentiating Dot). The built >> in rule >> is: >> >> D[X[t] . Y[t], t] >> X[t] . Derivative[1][Y][t] + Derivative[1][X][t] . Y[t] >> >> where of course X[t] and Y[t] should be vectors of the same dimension >> dependent on t. It is not valid for scalars. But what you are doing >> in >> effect is defining: >> >> X[t] := t; Y[t_] = t; >> >> and then getting >> >> D[X[t] . Y[t], t] >> 1 . t + t . 1 >> >> which is meaningless since X[t] and Y[t] cannot be scalars. >> >> >> Andrzej Kozlowski >> >>

**References**:**Derivative of Dot[]***From:*"Eitan Grinspun" <eitan@grinspun.com>

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**Re: Derivative of Dot[]**

**Re: Re: Derivative of Dot[]**