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Re: What is the point of having Initializations in

  • To: mathgroup at smc.vnet.net
  • Subject: [mg123040] Re: What is the point of having Initializations in
  • From: Mike H <mike.honeychurch at gmail.com>
  • Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 04:28:32 -0500 (EST)
  • Delivered-to: l-mathgroup@mail-archive0.wolfram.com
  • References: <CAAMnnc871YstsdaSWSWYU_uD88e=8Z3cPn+rGSO1jZ19uuaZTQ@mail.gmail.com>

John,

I do NOT expect plot or g to dynamically update. That is not what this is
about.

On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:34 PM, John Fultz <jfultz at wolfram.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:57:00 +1100, Mike H wrote:
> > So the output cell containing the list {plot, "Silder", g[0]} is not a
> > display of the DynamicModule?
>
> To refresh, the code you included was...
>
> DynamicModule[{c}, {plot, Slider[Dynamic[c]], g[Dynamic@c]},
> Initialization :> (g[x_] := Cos[x]; plot = Plot[g[x], {x, 1, 10}]),
> UntrackedVariables -> {g}]
>
> * plot is not in a Dynamic.  You get exactly what the Shift+Enter
> evaluation
> gave you.
> * g[] is not in a Dynamic (regardless of what argument you pass it).  You
> get
> exactly what the Shift+Enter evaluation gave you.
>
> The Shift+Enter evaluation has completed long before the DynamicModule is
> displayed and the Initialization is executed.
>
> And the fact that you expected g[Dynamic@c] and/or Cos[Dynamic@c] to
> return
> anything sensible (which I had overlooked in your example before)
> indicates that
> you are failing to understand some really fundamental stuff about Dynamic.



On the contrary I have already repeatedly explained what I expect: that is
that plot would appear as the rendered plot because its global value was
set during the initialization. As far as my lack fundamental understanding
of Dynamic goes I repeat again that the example was provided to me by
Wolfram Research Inc. It is also worth noting that when given the example I
was also advised by Wolfram Research that "The evaluation of g here is
triggered by making the argument to g dynamic."

I actually disagree with that advice provided to me by *your company* and
in fact it is wrong -- making the argument does not trigger the evaluation
of g. So rather than cast aspersions about my understanding of Dynamic you
might want to consider the knowledge base within Wolfram.




>  See
> here:
>
> http://forums.wolfram.com/mathgroup/archive/2010/May/msg00440.html
>
> and especially the post I link to here:
>
> http://forums.wolfram.com/mathgroup/archive/2009/Feb/msg00424.html
>
> Simply put, what is the value of?
>
> Cos[Dynamic[Pi]]
>
> Answer...Cos[Dynamic[Pi]], but because of the way Dynamic typesets, it
> will look
> like Cos[Pi] (because Dynamic[Pi] looks like Pi).  That is because
> Dynamic[Pi],
> in the Shift+Enter evaluation, always evaluates to Dynamic[Pi].  Dynamic
> is a
> HoldFirst function which never evaluates its argument...it merely creates a
> front end construct which evaluates and displays its argument.
>


yes. I agree but repeat that it is your colleagues providing this example
g[Dynamic[c]]

My question is solely about why the global value is not rendered. I am not
suggesting or expecting these variables to be dynamic so lets get back on
point.



>
>
>
>
> > I understand the point you make about if a colon were placed and no
> > output were generated but what is your definition of "first displayed"?
>
> It actually shows up in the front end.


> > I
> > guess this must be another point of difference because I would consider
> > the first display of the dynamic module as being the first time I see the
> > list {plot, "slider", g[0]} rendered.
>
> Yes, that's correct.  But why would you expect 'plot' or 'g' to magically
> update, since they are not inside of Dynamic?
>


I don't expect them to "update." I expect them to have global values at the
time of the rendering. The values are set once only. Based on the language
which you say you are going to re-write, I expect an initialization to set
plot to the graphic (once) and then when the dynamicmodule content is
evaluated and the rendered output shows the graphic.



>
>
> > So when I first see {plot, "slider", g[0]} the initialized value of plot
> > and g are not rendered. Apologies if it seems I'm laboring this point but
> > it remains confusing.
>
> > So it seems that the key to understanding this now becomes what the
> > definition of "display" is. Am I correct is saying that if a
> > DynamicModule is displayed -- and I await what this means -- the
> > initialization will have taken place and therefore the initialized value
> > will be shown in the display?
>
> The initialization will have taken place, but initialized values will only
> show
> if the FE is kicking off further evaluations to actually display
> them...which is
> what Dynamic does.
>
>
We're going in circles here, I do not understand how, if the
initializations have taken place, prior to the evaluation of the the list
(contents of the DM) that plot is not rendered as a graphic. If the
initialization has taken place then Global`plot must surely have a value at
the time the next step is executed -- which is the evaluation of the DM
body.

If I had evaluated plot=Plot[x,{x,0,1}] in a separate cell prior to
evaluating the DM the global value of plot would be (and is) shown in the
display. It is not a question of whether plot is updated -- I don't expect
it to be and don't want it to be (otherwise I would use Dynamic) it is a
question of whether the global value of plot is set in the initializations
prior to the evaluation of the body. If you have an evaluation order like
this:

evaluate initialization plot = plot[....]

then

evaluate {plot, slider, g[0]}

then I am still struggling to see how the global value of plot would not be
used in the displayed list.


Mike










>
> > FWIW I had assumed a display to be the rendered output.
>
> That is correct.
>






>
>
> > thanks
> >
> >
> > Mike
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John Fultz
> jfultz at wolfram.com
> User Interface Group
> Wolfram Research, Inc.
>
>


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